Thank you for this space! I'm a post-evangelical who for years has been wrestling with doubt and being very angry at the churches I've been a part of, but at the same time mourning the loss of community that was once so comfortable to me. Just reading the comments has made me feel seen in a way I haven't felt in years.
I feel this so hard. I was part of an evangelical missionary group for a few years after high school. In some ways, they changed my life and my faith in ways I deeply value. In other ways, it f*cked me up pretty bad and took years to recover from spiritually. I’m cool with the place I’m at now, but sometimes I miss specific people who have shunned me, and sometimes I miss just that general “on fire” vibe and sense of certainty.
I'm so glad for this! I still feel a tiny twinge of longing after my faith crises, and this seems like a nice safe way to stick my toe in the water every so often. It's been meaningful to look at examples of good relationships with Jesus and wonder what that could look like.
For those looking for a new church home, I highly recomend the Episcopal Church. Our bishop is awesome, our national diocese politics are liberal, and we are liturgical AF.
Well... that does depend from congregation to congregation. UUs are great if you’re looking for community, but plenty of them bristle at the mention of “the G word” (let alone the “J word”) so of what you want is a specifically *Christian* church experience, they may not be a good fit.
Definitely have experienced this; for folks looking for a specifically Christian experience, UCC is often a better fit, and the (loving!) moniker of Unitarians Considering Christ I think is apt in the churches I've visited.
My paternal grandparents were UU, in Jacksonville Florida which is hardly a beacon of progressive thought. Their church was what kept them sane and I have enormous love for the Unitarians.
Fellow Episcopalian here and I enthusiastically second this. Also one of our first American saints was a civil rights martyr. Being baptized as an Episcopalian is how I managed to survive the immediate aftershock of the 2016 election and has kept and does keep me from losing all hope.
Hey denomination buddy! Voicing my agreement here. Also the UU's are pretty chill. Believe it or not, here in Memphis, there's a couple of very liberal Baptist churches. But Go Team Episcopalian. (Go team anyone who is searching and wants to talk about faith, I honestly am just trying to pull a joke ie Pam from the Office.)
There is a super affirming, welcoming Baptist Church here with a good sized kid’s ministry but it is 35 minutes from my house and god hasn’t called loudly enough for me to get moving that quickly on Sundays.
Oh, yeah, I hear that. Our church has a vibrant children's program, but it was hard-won after cycling through multiple youth ministers and curricula. It's a tough thing to build!
I grew up UU, functionally atheist but I have always loved really good hymns because the UU hymnal uses or adapts a lot of them, my dad has an amazing baritone voice and is in choral groups, and we did a bunch of classical religious music in high school chorus that I loved. When I listen to a really good hymn I have what feels like a spiritual experience communing with the amazing art humans have made. All that said, I am cultivating a Really Good Hymns Spotify list and would love any suggestions for additions. My style is more old school (for example, I do not like the arrangement that MoTab and John Rutter use for For the Beauty of the Earth, found the right one from Oasis Chorale). My current list, in cultivated order though not strict priority order: How Great Thou Art; Ye Watchers and Ye Holy Ones; Guide Me, O Thou Great Redeemer; Nearer, My God, To Thee; Be Thou My Vision; Eternal Father Strong to Save; For the Beauty of the Earth; Morning Has Broken; Be Still, For the Presence of the Lord. Anyone?
I was also *stricken* by the hymn that folks were singing outside Notre Dame as it burned-- Je vous salue Marie [Emmanuel], has entered the rotation. I also love spirituals but I don't think that would mesh well with your playlist. Could you share a link to your playlist so I can follow it?
I literally came here to post almost exactly this-- I grew raised secular humanist, am married to a UU, but I grew up singing in children's choirs that performed a ton of religious music and I love love love love hymns. I love these, and also the Hyfrodol, including the UU-iest version, Blue Boat Home. Also a giant fan of How Can I Keep From Singing which has been a staple forever.
Aaah Blue Boat Home, of course! I also grew up with How Can I Keep From Singing as a folk song (probably the Enya version) but I just found a bangin' MoTab version for the playlist https://open.spotify.com/playlist/507qXp3yO0ISjio6Zl16jM
First, Come Thou Fount Of Every Blessing is one of my absolute favorites <3. Second, does anyone else find it hard to find a church they feel like they can trust and belong? My beliefs haven't changed, but I find it hard to motivate myself to actually go back to church. I think the one that hurt me most was at my last church. It was pretty small (200 people, maybe only 100 each week), the pastor married us, we went for 3 years... but then when we stopped going, we only got contacted by her once we stopped our donation 6 months later...
I have a really, really hard time trusting churches that I can't shake -- my father was a pastor for years, and growing up as a preacher's kid was... not a lot of fun. We moved around a lot, and were at some churches where the people in the congregation were deeply cruel (harassing my mother if she bought new clothes for my brother and I, instead of just using the worn-out hand-me-downs they gave her, for example. At one church, I remember people would actually follow me as I walked to school, and scold my mom if I talked to the "wrong" kids or dawdled or whatever.
And then, my father cheated on my mom with a married woman from our church, and it was a whole thing, and nearly destroyed the whole church, and it turned out that he'd been lying and horrible for my entire life (and it's a VERY long story, full of drama, but one I am willing to tell if you're curious). So, yeah, LOTS of trust issues, especially believing that pastors are genuine and not secretly lying cheating horrors.
I'm... lapsed/confused, but yes, this is the hardest part for me, too. I know of one church I'd probably love to attend but it's in another city and the pastor is a close friend, which doesn't work for him or me.
I also am worried (maybe falsely?) about spending months or a year at a church only then to find out that actually they are super homophobic or something else. I might've made the mistake of going to a megachurch in the past and only found out how awful they were when I decided to volunteer (and then decided to keep volunteering in case one of the kids later came out, which did end up happening).
I have looked into every large church in my area and none have welcoming policies. More than one had leaders who on their private social media supported the NC bathroom bill or had sermons around those issues that were bad. Of course they also have all the super fun family set ups
I did something similar, I accidentally joined a small, super conservative church, but they hid it well behind modern looking stuff. I remember hearing one day in a sermon that I needed to beware being in academia because it was full of sin or something and looking up like, where am I???
Yeah, they pretty much never said anything in the sermons... until one month they did a series about how married men should not spend any time alone with unmarried women including at work and basically, my head exploded because I'm generally the only woman in my department. Somehow I missed all the little things that undoubtedly got said prior to that.
Exactly! What a seriously unpleasant surprise. How I went on for so long not remotely on the same page as them is completely beyond me. Or maybe they just hide it really well behind a "we're hip" presentation.
You have to know the tell-tale signs, but they rather purposely don’t make it explicit what they mean. They’re like dog-whistles to the faithful that won’t scare off the rest.
Like, if all the men in major positions carry the title “Minister” (Men’s Minister, Youth Pastor, Minister of Music, Finance Pastor) but the women don’t get called an ordained title EVER (Women’s Ministry Leader, Sunday School Coordinator, Music Leader, Accountant). That’s a huge one.
When my family moved, it was really important to us to find a church that welcomed all LGBTQ people in worship, service AND leadership. So we visited a few good candidates once, and asked to meet with each minister. It really helped us get a sense of what “welcoming” meant to them, how they talk about faith, stuff like that.
I totally recommend doing this. Most ministers are very happy to sit down with prospective new members and have a good conversation. If they aren’t, that’s probably a sign it’s not a good fit.
I go straight for tough questions too like teachings on sexuality, church finances, views on community service, etc. But I’m a church kid who has seen behind the curtain in many different kinds of churches and knows what to ask at this point. I’m happy to offer pointers.
I’ve been very lucky to find an amazingly progressive church, but I also have the advantage of starting in a very liberal city - so I think this varies wildly by location, also by denomination. Just spitballing, maybe those of us who attend regularly somewhere could help create a Nicole Knows resource list of progressive churches? I’d be happy to throw up a Google Doc.
There's a website called Church Clarity (churchclarity.org) (are we allowed to post links?) that tracks churches that are or aren't affirming toward women and LGBTQIA+ communities; this seems like a great way to at least start exploring what options are in your area.
No one asked, but I would just like to say that I recently learned that T. Bone Burnett grew up Episcopalian and my mind was blown. Based on his taste in hymns had assumed Baptist, or Disciples/Church Of Christ/Christian Church, or Methodist at the very least. Anyway, that’s all I have for this Wednesday.
If anyone wants more Wednesday worship material, the podcast Good Christian Fun releases episodes weekly on Wednesdays. It's definitely a comedy podcast, as the hosts and their guests cover Christian pop culture and media, but the hosts are still practitioners and every episode they touch on very sincere topics relating to Christianity.
I like that podcast but I feel frustrated listening sometimes because it makes me really want to talk about the deeper things behind, like, laughing at DC Talk. I’d love to find a chat group about it.
Have you checked out the Good Christian Fans Facebook group? It's a pretty great community with multiple off-shoots for different types of discussions.
So, can we talk about how hard it is to get yourself to the church building sometimes, and then struggling with crushing guilt for not going?
I'm lucky to attend a small, progressive church with a really wonderful pastoral team (doubly lucky because I live in the South, where such things can be rare), but our services are in the afternoons, and I find myself skipping them more often than not. I feel guilty for wasting the gift of this community, but also, having grown up with pastor parents and spending entire weekends at church for most of my life, I sort of indulge in the power to stay home? If that makes sense?
I wish I could find a church with afternoon services. I end up skipping going because services are early in the morning on Sundays, and I always just want to sleep in.
I really like this! I grew up in the church, Catholic family but a non-denominational church home. I stopped attending after our youth pastor was caught sleeping with one of my 17 year old class mates. His wife cried on stage that Sunday, stating that her marriage was about what God wants, not what she wants.
I’ve had a hard time with the idea of church since then. Add in all of the conservative rhetoric and I’m just not sure there’s a church near me (deep south) where I would feel at home.
I go to the most amazing church in Chicago and we meet in bars and if it’s your first time we buy your first beer cuz *hospitality* so come visit, y’all.
And we sing pop songs because those are the songs that make us weepy and angry and seen the most often. Except at Christmas when we have a carol sing along cuz Christmas.
Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing is just the greatest and I get teary when we sing it in church bc that’s like CHEATING. First, it’s already church. And then you gotta go and do THAT. Cheating.
I am very excited about this tbh. I was raised and baptized by Catholic and it’s something I struggle with so my faith is v v shaky but I am pumped for these posts!
Oh, whew, I was waiting for the chance to mention I'd bought Dallas Willard's "Divine Conspiracy" per your recommendation; just about two chapters in, and already how I think/relate to God has been shaken up after a lifetime in the church. Whew! Thank you.
That was me! I totally agree. I both really want a place to talk about my faith and also am very self-conscious about doing it in a totally public space like Twitter. Both because I don’t want to offend others and I know I’ll make mistakes (raised fundamentalist, but not anymore), and also because it’s nice to just talk to other people who are chill with discussing Christianity.
Thank you for this space! I'm a post-evangelical who for years has been wrestling with doubt and being very angry at the churches I've been a part of, but at the same time mourning the loss of community that was once so comfortable to me. Just reading the comments has made me feel seen in a way I haven't felt in years.
I feel this so hard. I was part of an evangelical missionary group for a few years after high school. In some ways, they changed my life and my faith in ways I deeply value. In other ways, it f*cked me up pretty bad and took years to recover from spiritually. I’m cool with the place I’m at now, but sometimes I miss specific people who have shunned me, and sometimes I miss just that general “on fire” vibe and sense of certainty.
I'm so glad for this! I still feel a tiny twinge of longing after my faith crises, and this seems like a nice safe way to stick my toe in the water every so often. It's been meaningful to look at examples of good relationships with Jesus and wonder what that could look like.
For those looking for a new church home, I highly recomend the Episcopal Church. Our bishop is awesome, our national diocese politics are liberal, and we are liturgical AF.
Shout out also to the Unitarian Universalists, who are chill with whatever you believe and create some awesome liberal communities across the country.
Well... that does depend from congregation to congregation. UUs are great if you’re looking for community, but plenty of them bristle at the mention of “the G word” (let alone the “J word”) so of what you want is a specifically *Christian* church experience, they may not be a good fit.
(I speak as a current Christian/Methodist who left a UU church for this reason.)
Definitely have experienced this; for folks looking for a specifically Christian experience, UCC is often a better fit, and the (loving!) moniker of Unitarians Considering Christ I think is apt in the churches I've visited.
My paternal grandparents were UU, in Jacksonville Florida which is hardly a beacon of progressive thought. Their church was what kept them sane and I have enormous love for the Unitarians.
Fellow Episcopalian here and I enthusiastically second this. Also one of our first American saints was a civil rights martyr. Being baptized as an Episcopalian is how I managed to survive the immediate aftershock of the 2016 election and has kept and does keep me from losing all hope.
Hey denomination buddy! Voicing my agreement here. Also the UU's are pretty chill. Believe it or not, here in Memphis, there's a couple of very liberal Baptist churches. But Go Team Episcopalian. (Go team anyone who is searching and wants to talk about faith, I honestly am just trying to pull a joke ie Pam from the Office.)
There is a super affirming, welcoming Baptist Church here with a good sized kid’s ministry but it is 35 minutes from my house and god hasn’t called loudly enough for me to get moving that quickly on Sundays.
American Baptists are v different than Southern Baptists.
I did attend one briefly and they were really lovely but there was no real programming for kids at this particular church which is a challenge for me
Oh, yeah, I hear that. Our church has a vibrant children's program, but it was hard-won after cycling through multiple youth ministers and curricula. It's a tough thing to build!
I grew up UU, functionally atheist but I have always loved really good hymns because the UU hymnal uses or adapts a lot of them, my dad has an amazing baritone voice and is in choral groups, and we did a bunch of classical religious music in high school chorus that I loved. When I listen to a really good hymn I have what feels like a spiritual experience communing with the amazing art humans have made. All that said, I am cultivating a Really Good Hymns Spotify list and would love any suggestions for additions. My style is more old school (for example, I do not like the arrangement that MoTab and John Rutter use for For the Beauty of the Earth, found the right one from Oasis Chorale). My current list, in cultivated order though not strict priority order: How Great Thou Art; Ye Watchers and Ye Holy Ones; Guide Me, O Thou Great Redeemer; Nearer, My God, To Thee; Be Thou My Vision; Eternal Father Strong to Save; For the Beauty of the Earth; Morning Has Broken; Be Still, For the Presence of the Lord. Anyone?
I was also *stricken* by the hymn that folks were singing outside Notre Dame as it burned-- Je vous salue Marie [Emmanuel], has entered the rotation. I also love spirituals but I don't think that would mesh well with your playlist. Could you share a link to your playlist so I can follow it?
https://open.spotify.com/playlist/507qXp3yO0ISjio6Zl16jM Here is the link--everything below Thine Be The Glory is stuff I'm auditioning for inclusion in the list.
This is so great, thank you!
Love how great thou art.
I literally came here to post almost exactly this-- I grew raised secular humanist, am married to a UU, but I grew up singing in children's choirs that performed a ton of religious music and I love love love love hymns. I love these, and also the Hyfrodol, including the UU-iest version, Blue Boat Home. Also a giant fan of How Can I Keep From Singing which has been a staple forever.
Blue Boat Home hits me RIGHT IN THE FEELS BUCKET.
I honestly tried SO HARD not to love it, but I am helpless to its charms.
I mean, I even went and had the audacity to find God and STILL. THE FEELS. I think it was scientifically engineered for tear jerking.
Aaah Blue Boat Home, of course! I also grew up with How Can I Keep From Singing as a folk song (probably the Enya version) but I just found a bangin' MoTab version for the playlist https://open.spotify.com/playlist/507qXp3yO0ISjio6Zl16jM
Thanks for this playlist!
First, Come Thou Fount Of Every Blessing is one of my absolute favorites <3. Second, does anyone else find it hard to find a church they feel like they can trust and belong? My beliefs haven't changed, but I find it hard to motivate myself to actually go back to church. I think the one that hurt me most was at my last church. It was pretty small (200 people, maybe only 100 each week), the pastor married us, we went for 3 years... but then when we stopped going, we only got contacted by her once we stopped our donation 6 months later...
I have a really, really hard time trusting churches that I can't shake -- my father was a pastor for years, and growing up as a preacher's kid was... not a lot of fun. We moved around a lot, and were at some churches where the people in the congregation were deeply cruel (harassing my mother if she bought new clothes for my brother and I, instead of just using the worn-out hand-me-downs they gave her, for example. At one church, I remember people would actually follow me as I walked to school, and scold my mom if I talked to the "wrong" kids or dawdled or whatever.
And then, my father cheated on my mom with a married woman from our church, and it was a whole thing, and nearly destroyed the whole church, and it turned out that he'd been lying and horrible for my entire life (and it's a VERY long story, full of drama, but one I am willing to tell if you're curious). So, yeah, LOTS of trust issues, especially believing that pastors are genuine and not secretly lying cheating horrors.
I'm... lapsed/confused, but yes, this is the hardest part for me, too. I know of one church I'd probably love to attend but it's in another city and the pastor is a close friend, which doesn't work for him or me.
Every few months I think we should join a church then I try to find one that fits all our needs and give up again....
I also am worried (maybe falsely?) about spending months or a year at a church only then to find out that actually they are super homophobic or something else. I might've made the mistake of going to a megachurch in the past and only found out how awful they were when I decided to volunteer (and then decided to keep volunteering in case one of the kids later came out, which did end up happening).
I have looked into every large church in my area and none have welcoming policies. More than one had leaders who on their private social media supported the NC bathroom bill or had sermons around those issues that were bad. Of course they also have all the super fun family set ups
I did something similar, I accidentally joined a small, super conservative church, but they hid it well behind modern looking stuff. I remember hearing one day in a sermon that I needed to beware being in academia because it was full of sin or something and looking up like, where am I???
Yeah, they pretty much never said anything in the sermons... until one month they did a series about how married men should not spend any time alone with unmarried women including at work and basically, my head exploded because I'm generally the only woman in my department. Somehow I missed all the little things that undoubtedly got said prior to that.
Exactly! What a seriously unpleasant surprise. How I went on for so long not remotely on the same page as them is completely beyond me. Or maybe they just hide it really well behind a "we're hip" presentation.
They hide it so well! I was there for three years before that happened.
You have to know the tell-tale signs, but they rather purposely don’t make it explicit what they mean. They’re like dog-whistles to the faithful that won’t scare off the rest.
Like, if all the men in major positions carry the title “Minister” (Men’s Minister, Youth Pastor, Minister of Music, Finance Pastor) but the women don’t get called an ordained title EVER (Women’s Ministry Leader, Sunday School Coordinator, Music Leader, Accountant). That’s a huge one.
I ask!
When my family moved, it was really important to us to find a church that welcomed all LGBTQ people in worship, service AND leadership. So we visited a few good candidates once, and asked to meet with each minister. It really helped us get a sense of what “welcoming” meant to them, how they talk about faith, stuff like that.
I totally recommend doing this. Most ministers are very happy to sit down with prospective new members and have a good conversation. If they aren’t, that’s probably a sign it’s not a good fit.
I go straight for tough questions too like teachings on sexuality, church finances, views on community service, etc. But I’m a church kid who has seen behind the curtain in many different kinds of churches and knows what to ask at this point. I’m happy to offer pointers.
I’ve been very lucky to find an amazingly progressive church, but I also have the advantage of starting in a very liberal city - so I think this varies wildly by location, also by denomination. Just spitballing, maybe those of us who attend regularly somewhere could help create a Nicole Knows resource list of progressive churches? I’d be happy to throw up a Google Doc.
There's a website called Church Clarity (churchclarity.org) (are we allowed to post links?) that tracks churches that are or aren't affirming toward women and LGBTQIA+ communities; this seems like a great way to at least start exploring what options are in your area.
If you can find a UCC church, I do recommend them Especially one that specifically says that they are Open and Affirming.
It's so exhausting! And when I think I find it, I find out later that it wasn't true :(
No one asked, but I would just like to say that I recently learned that T. Bone Burnett grew up Episcopalian and my mind was blown. Based on his taste in hymns had assumed Baptist, or Disciples/Church Of Christ/Christian Church, or Methodist at the very least. Anyway, that’s all I have for this Wednesday.
If anyone wants more Wednesday worship material, the podcast Good Christian Fun releases episodes weekly on Wednesdays. It's definitely a comedy podcast, as the hosts and their guests cover Christian pop culture and media, but the hosts are still practitioners and every episode they touch on very sincere topics relating to Christianity.
I'm listening to their Patreon podcast right now - it's so great.
I like that podcast but I feel frustrated listening sometimes because it makes me really want to talk about the deeper things behind, like, laughing at DC Talk. I’d love to find a chat group about it.
Have you checked out the Good Christian Fans Facebook group? It's a pretty great community with multiple off-shoots for different types of discussions.
So, can we talk about how hard it is to get yourself to the church building sometimes, and then struggling with crushing guilt for not going?
I'm lucky to attend a small, progressive church with a really wonderful pastoral team (doubly lucky because I live in the South, where such things can be rare), but our services are in the afternoons, and I find myself skipping them more often than not. I feel guilty for wasting the gift of this community, but also, having grown up with pastor parents and spending entire weekends at church for most of my life, I sort of indulge in the power to stay home? If that makes sense?
I wish I could find a church with afternoon services. I end up skipping going because services are early in the morning on Sundays, and I always just want to sleep in.
Mine meets at 5 pm and I go every Sunday. 10 am? Maybe once a month.
I really like this! I grew up in the church, Catholic family but a non-denominational church home. I stopped attending after our youth pastor was caught sleeping with one of my 17 year old class mates. His wife cried on stage that Sunday, stating that her marriage was about what God wants, not what she wants.
I’ve had a hard time with the idea of church since then. Add in all of the conservative rhetoric and I’m just not sure there’s a church near me (deep south) where I would feel at home.
Very excited for this! I wouldn't say I'm shaky in my faith, just constantly trying to figure out where I fit, church-wise.
I go to the most amazing church in Chicago and we meet in bars and if it’s your first time we buy your first beer cuz *hospitality* so come visit, y’all.
And we sing pop songs because those are the songs that make us weepy and angry and seen the most often. Except at Christmas when we have a carol sing along cuz Christmas.
OOH we have a playlist of our favorite pop songs: https://www.youtube.com/playlist…
And we’re UCC and DOC. I’m UCC.
Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing is just the greatest and I get teary when we sing it in church bc that’s like CHEATING. First, it’s already church. And then you gotta go and do THAT. Cheating.
I am very excited about this tbh. I was raised and baptized by Catholic and it’s something I struggle with so my faith is v v shaky but I am pumped for these posts!
Oh, whew, I was waiting for the chance to mention I'd bought Dallas Willard's "Divine Conspiracy" per your recommendation; just about two chapters in, and already how I think/relate to God has been shaken up after a lifetime in the church. Whew! Thank you.
I paid money to come here and say I appreciate Christianity being cool here. (Cool being my own definition, not megachurch pastor cool.)
Thank you whoever liked this! I felt silly paying $5 but I really appreciate that about this space.
That was me! I totally agree. I both really want a place to talk about my faith and also am very self-conscious about doing it in a totally public space like Twitter. Both because I don’t want to offend others and I know I’ll make mistakes (raised fundamentalist, but not anymore), and also because it’s nice to just talk to other people who are chill with discussing Christianity.
https://youtu.be/EfGDvDGE7zk
This is one of my favorites.